Alright, so I thought the "God is not republican or democrat" web page was great. But I am also starting to be slightly offended by some of it. I agree that Bush isn't an amazing character. I agree that Iraq is an unwinnable situation. I agree that churches need to stay out of politics.
But!
I also think that when I cast my vote, I am voting because I want to, not because Jerry Falwell told me to. I mean, honestly, I am a very political person. My biggest issue with the site is this: just becasue someone votes for Bush, it does NOT mean that they are ignorant or swayed by religious reasons. Some, maybe. But I for one do not think that Kerry has provided any reasons why he is any better than what we have. And to say that those voting for Kerry are not at all swayed by anything or that they are all just "free thinkers" is offensive. Many people are swayed by organizations, their friends, pastors, you name it.
I guess I'm just really tired of hearing that conservatism (politically) is a bad thing and liberalism (politically) is a more free thinking way. Cause that is bullsh**.
Also, to say that the 1000 American lives lost in Iraq was a waste goes FULLY against what we as Christ-followers ought to be thinking. Whether or not you agree with the war or how it was posed to the people of America and the world, the fact that many men and womem gave their lives to protect the rights and lives of people in another country is undeniable. You may say they did it out of coersion: "Bush sent them there." Or you may say that they died to better americas oil, but you cannot deny that Saddam was an evil man who killed millions of his own people. You can not dismiss that fact. How many thousands must die to save millions. I guess it is a question we have to wrestle with.
So, I guess I'm saying, the war was sold to us poorly in misleading ways (not always by Bush, but by his advisory staff) but to say it was a completely wrong thing to do and that the people of Iraq will not ever reap benefits from it is foolish.
The topic of rebuilding... another story. Not so up on the democracy stance over there. But, another post...
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5 comments:
good for you in realizing that it's not just about accepting blindly new information and living with a new dogma... and while i really hope that we do not have another 4 years with our current president, my goal is to educate people on seing multiple angles, not show them that bush is the worst president of all time and kerry is the messiah...
some of us people in the emerging church world live in a similar way... we are so burned by the stuff we supported years ago and now we live in diametric opposition to much of it... now we say that the old way of thinking is 'wrong' and the new way 'right'... we must be careful of this...
but back to the issue at hand: the church's role in politics... i dont necessarily think that jim (and those at sojo) is saying that the church should have no role in politics... i have heard him speak and i have perused his site a bit... he is all for education, and he can only speak to a general audience and his general audience does seem to be ignorant and swayed by their religious institutions... my family is a good example of this... in my opinion...
as for whether the usa 'taking out' saddam was a virtuous effort is not so black and white... while i feel that he was an evil man, i am reminded of the quote that the line between good and evil is not something that divides one people group from another or one of us from the rest, but it is a line that runs right down the middle of each and every one of us...
does much of the middle east view america as evil?... yes... do they hate us 'because of our freedom' (as bush says)?... well, they hate that we oppress certain people with our freedoms... they hate that we have no regard for issues that are much older than our country...
just thoughts...
Ryan,
My opinion on churches and their political roles is that Pastors have no place making political statememnts from the pulpit. I think we agree that Pastors are to speak Truth from the pulpit. If we allow them to make political statements, it turns into a religious politic. A pastor has no role in that. He is to speak the truths of God.
About Iraq, I don't know where I stand on that. I believe that a Presidents job is to protect the safety and well being of our country. Maybe as Christ-Followers, we are not that kind of people, we are to love the world, not just where we live, but the President is not a church sponsored postition. I think he did what a president had every right to do.
My fear is that we say Christianity is to be revolutionary, outside politics in many ways. Like where do Christ followers have the right to pass laws against the moral situations in our country, first we are called to holiness, not morality. Second, we cannot hold non-followers to the way of life we have found to be so wonderful, you know. So I hear people saying that the ban on gay marriage is rediculous because we have no right to (as a church) claim our standards on the world. At the same time, they say our president is not doing what we as followers should do, love the world.
I'm just a little irritated by the overused rhetoric about the evil of the war. Saddam was an evil man, yes we all have that capability, but I'm not out slaughtering the Kurds. My two pennies. Well, it's more like 4 now.
i think we are more on the same page than you might think!...
i do not think that the kingdom of god will be advanced through political or military efforts...
so, do i feel like pastors should be 'political' or encourage their church community to vote their particular way?... no...
but do i feel like the role of a pastor is to help people see their whole lives as sacramental... so everything they do and live for and vote for is a part of their 'spiritual' existence?... yes...
for me that looks like us as a church each reading up on different propositions that we will vote on this fall and educating each other on the key points... it means figuring out how we can express the love of god in as many ways as possible...
in response to your thoughts on the evil of saddam hussein, i agree that america is not overtly killing people by slaughtering them, but we must realize that things are not so black and white... that is, we enforce policies (south american trade agreements, countries we choose to support because they have what we need while we turn a blind eye to their atrocities) that can be directly linked to much evil...
even the fact that we have killed so many innocents in iraq is evil... surely you would agree with this, right?...
I know what you mean, and yes I agree that killing innocent people is evil. We'll continue this later in other posts i'm sure ;)
I am with you on this on, Jeff! You are right on!
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